Thursday, June 01, 2006

Stossel!


Stossel say:

"It takes a long time for socialist systems to break down," he said, noting that Canadians are already travelling to U.S. cities like Buffalo for medical treatment that they can't get in a timely way at home.

"At first they work . . . but it's a slow breakdown."

The U.S. health-care system isn't perfect either, Stossel noted -- government intervention has bogged down a system that he believes should be left entirely up to private enterprise.

20 comments:

leftdog said...

Oh for heavens sake, leave it alone!@! The VAST majority of Canadians WANT medicare. The US puts more of its GDP into health care than Canadians and they are not as healthy as Canadians. A lot of them go bankrupt trying to pay the medical bills.

This is the one thing that just drives me and others nuts about the CTF is your constant, constant, constant lobbying to try and make health care a commodity in the Canada. You are in a minority - speaking for a minority - and you are the target of our utter contempt for harping endlessly to put health care on the open market. Why don't you just drop it. Canadians are not going to give up Medicare no matter what arguments you make. You lost this battle a long time ago and you have now earned the status of a 'broken record' - that just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Canadians want medicare. They will not give it up. David I salute you for your sheer tenacity, and your employers should give you a raise for the crap we throw at you over this issue, BUT as I said, enough of the broken record. Canadians will not part with it! PERIOD!@

Tanis Fiss said...

Leftdog;

Simple fact is that markets work. Why, because markets provide a win-win situation.

Have you ever noticed when you purchase something, say a carton of milk, there is this strange thank-you, thank-you moment?

You give the store owner $1 for the milk. The store owner takes the $1 says, "thank-you" and then gives you the milk. You take the milk and say "thank-you."

Why the thank-you, thank-you moment? You wanted the milk more than you wanted the $1. The store owner wanted the $1 more than they wanted the milk. You are both happy because you both got what you wanted.

That's the market! No zero sum gain, but a true win-win scenario for all.

Hence, the CTFs ongoing support for taxpayer-friendly and market-based halth care reforms.

leftdog said...

EXCEPT you miss the part where the farmer gets 2 cents and the dairy and the storekeeper split the 98 cents - YUP that works REAL good for the entrepreneur -NOT the producer and NOT the consumer. Capitalist Ideology has its flaws - none more so than when health care is a commodity and rationing of the commodity is based on ability to pay - you don't pay = you die. YUP that works REAL good!!!!!

David MacLean said...

leftdog, we aren't going to change your mind and you aren't going to change ours. That said, if your 2 cent for the dairy producer is scenario is true (which it isn't) that means running a dairy is a really good business. That means we should all open up dairies. Then it would hit a point where there are too many dairies and the producers are setting the price. Then we would all go out and invest in dairy farms. Thus the cycle of life continues. The only thing that would interfere with this process is the government -- and they do through marketing boards and quotas.

And, NOBODY in the US dies because of an inability to pay. That's a lie, but it won't stop you from repeating it.

leftdog said...

David - didn't you notice that I said your bosses should give you a raise??!!
Back to health care - you should look into the American report that came out yesterday praising Canadian style health care. Numerous cases have been identified where TOTALLY UNNECESSARY surgeries were documented in the US just so that the patient could be billed! Yes - people do die! I know you are referring to the US concept of 'Mercy hospitals' but those aren't available in rural and remote areas. DAvid - if they don't pay = they die!!! It used to happen in Canada before medicare!!! We're not gonna let that happen here again. If the CTF could find a way to accept Medicare but to fight for efficiencies, reasonable cost cutting - okay - but this endless ideological harping is not working for you.

David MacLean said...

You are lying again. Either that, or your are misinformed (deliberately?). In the united states it is ILLEGAL to deny health care to someone because they can't pay. ILLEGAL. Got it?

leftdog said...

I feel like I am about to tell someone 'that there is no real Santa Claus."
The fact that it is on the books as being 'illegal' means nothing.
http://www.getsickgobroke.org/

David MacLean said...

As for unnecessary surgeries -- same things happen here in Canada. Doctors work on a fee for service arrangement.

But more commonly the opposite is true. Surgeries cancelled becuase of rationing. I prefer the former.

leftdog said...

Denial of health care is a MAJOR issue in the USA -
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:rfD5vHDwzOYJ:www.medicinenet.com
/script/main/art.asp%3Farticlekey%3D51379+denied+medical+
care&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=6&lr=lang_en

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,89556,00.html

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0428,pyne,55024,1.html

leftdog said...

One last link - this is a good one:

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=51379

David MacLean said...

None of those links show someone being kicked out of a hospital to die on the sidewalk because they don't have any money.

In fact, one of those links could be written about canada.

What those links do show is people not WANTING the big bill.

Of the 44 million who don't have insurance in the US, 35 per cent earn more than $50,000 per year. 67 per cent earn at least $25,000 a year.

David MacLean said...

Alrigth leftdog, you made me work for it. Chew on some links.

The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) requires this in the case of emergencies: Here is the description from Wikipedia: (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMTALA)


The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (42 U.S.C. § 1395dd, EMTALA) is a United States Act of Congress passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act. It requires hospitals and ambulance services to provide care to anyone needing emergency treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay. There are no reimbursement provisions; as a result of the act, patients needing emergency treatment can be discharged only under their own informed consent or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment.


Also, many uninsured Americans get free surgery (non-emergency) by simply not paying. Hospitals shift the costs to patients with insurance.

Adam Taylor said...

Medicare, Shmedicare.

Most Canadians (and countless public opinion data shows this) want timely access to health care services when they need it.

They don't care how it is delivered.

The proliferation of private clinics is a direct response to the lack of quality and timely care in the public system.

If medicare worked then wait times would be non-existent and we have some of the longest wait times among developed countries.

Leftdog, when you say that in the U.S if you don't pay you die - well in Canada there's a slight variation - you don't have to pay and you still die.

Question for you: Why do you cling to a notion of an exclusively government-run system when the data clearly shows that this isn't providing the care that Canadians want and need???

leftdog said...

Why oh why do you not race immediately to live in that land of milk and honey where the free market showers kisses and blessings on those whom embrace it?? Why would you ever stay in Canada if you find it to be such a god forsaken hell hole - why do you continue to let Canada inflict all of its injustice upon you???

David MacLean said...

I'll just let that last comment stand for what it is.

Adam Taylor said...

With respect Leftdog....


"ideological harping?"

HA!

You are proving to be the one ideologically opposed to ANY reform.

The fact that the current system is so broken and you still think its A-OK makes you the true ideologue.

The CTF advocates reform in direct response to a) the unsustainability over the longterm of the current Soviet-style system and b) the quality/access issues that plague the status quo.

You really misread Canadians if you think that medicare in its current form is the ONLY form of health care Canadians will accept.

We do not advocate an American system. Many here make sweeping generlizations about that system. It is true though that while they won't let you die in the waiting room - there will be a big bill when you recover.

Try looking to some European models - such as the heartless Swedes and the compassionless French. Those are the systems we should be loooking to - the ones ranked the best in the world.

Adam Taylor said...

leftdog,

This started out as a real debate with opposing viewpoints and you conclude by somehow inferring that we aren't Canadians?

Tres immature.

We are all Canadians and you really cheapen your views with such crap.

leftdog said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
David MacLean said...

She was the victim of a strike.

R.S. Porter said...

And the rest of us don't have practical reasons for opposing government monopoly run healthcare? What about my elderly friend of the family who had to wait over two years, in pain, for a hip replacement. While in the states it would have been done within two weeks. I feel "PASSIONATELY" that forcing my neighbor to pay for my healthcare is inefficient and completely immoral.

But how could I possibly convince you... you still think Mr. MacLean and myself are the same person. Paranoia knows no bounds.

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